The Hidden Power of Inwardly Sound Leadership: Transforming Teams Through Trust

Tim:
So we, we had the data to run it. My, my research colleague, Vanessa Kiley, she got behind the computer and put it into the SPSS software. And I went into her office one night. She said, I’ve got the results. And I was very interested to hear what the results of this analysis was.

And here’s what she said.

Nothing. There’s no statistical correlation between personality style and effective leadership or natural human capabilities. And what I mean by that. Let me, let me clarify that because that can sound like a vague term. One of the measurements on this assessment, it’s called the Highlands assessment, is they’ll give you a string of numbers and then they’ll take it away and say, how many can you remember?

Now, that seems like an odd thing in a test, but there’s all kinds of tests that indicate how do we learn and other things like that. Well, some people can look at a string of numbers and they’ll remember three, and that’s only if it’s the same as their area code. And other people can look at a string of numbers and they’ll get all of them. That’s what I mean by a natural human quality. And so we are measuring a variety of human qualities there through the Highlands.

There was no statistical connection. But in an act of desperation, Vanessa said, well, forget about any hypothesis that we have, just look for any, any numeric correlation that you can anywhere. And that’s when this story that we’re talking about today emerged. We had eight aspects of leadership that we were measuring. So I want everybody to think about a pizza, a round pizza.

When you cut a round pizza into its all slices equal, that’s eight slices of pizza around that circle and every slice is worth. I’m going to be nerdy math here. That’s 12 and a half percent every slice. Or an easier way to think about it, any two slices are a quarter of the pizza, right? So if these eight areas are all equally important, when we measure variability on the assessment, every set of two slices should be worth 25% of the movement in the assessment because that means, hey, everything’s equally important.

And when Vanessa put it into the software and said, look for statistical correlations, what came back to us is that you have two slices of pizza that when you add them together are 77% of the pizza. These are two very big pieces of pizza. These are the two that my previously mentioned 16 year old would go after right out of the box, right? These are the big ones. And so the question is, okay, well which two are there?

And as I look back on it now, you know, you always see things a little clearer in hindsight. It took, it took a while, but eventually the very obvious story stepped forward. When you look at the six things that were smaller, those were things like set direction, think strategically, motivate and inspire, ensure execution, those kinds of things. Actually, the typical things that we talk about with leadership, that made up the 23%. When you looked at the other two, the really big slices of pizza, those were the two that we’ve been talking about, inwardly sound and others focused.

And that’s when three years later, frankly, the light bulb went off for me is that those two things, inwardly sound and others focused, those are about who you are, the other six are about what you do. And so that’s the foundation of leadership. Which is to say I say 77% when I’m being nerdy. But if we round it, that’s what we mean when we say three quarters of your effectiveness as a leader comes from who you are not what you do. And I mentioned earlier, and we can go as much into it as you like, but it all comes back to the issue of trust and how trust creates engagement.

So ulTimately, that’s what this research points to, and that’s the work that we do, is we walk this path to help people become inwardly sound, more inwardly sound, and more others focus because that will improve their leadership.

Meg:
And since you’ve been doing this, I know from the book, you’ve had some great tesTimonials coming back from people who have participated in your sessions. Give just a couple of examples of some great turnarounds from average people who then created some amazing results.

Tim:
Yeah, I’ll start from the macro and we’ll go down to the micro. So there is an international organization who, fortunate for us, I couldn’t. There’s so many things in this business I could not have arranged. Meg, this is one of those stories. We started working with them at the exact same Time that they started working with McKinsey. For those who might be familiar with McKinsey, and McKinsey has something that’s fairly well known called the Organizational Health Index ohi. And they apply it to companies across the globe.

And they were measuring this organization and when they measured them, they were in the bottom quartile of Organizational Health Index, which is not a happy story in any way. You don’t want to be in the bottom quartile of anything, especially not this thing that has all kinds of implications to financial performance. This organization really dug in to working on who. They really dug into the effort of working on inwardly sound and others focused. They also did a number of other things.

So I’m not saying that that’s the only thing that. But we had a variety of the executives in that group come to me privately and say years later, five years later, to be exact, the work that we were doing on WHO has made a huge difference for who we are becoming as an organization. And so if I’m one of your listeners, I’m saying, okay, that’s a vague story, Tim. I need some evidence which would be a fair. I mean, I’m an engineer, so I like that question.

The reality is, in those five years now, they had invested at the very top level in who, not what if we’ll just call it that they invested at middle manager and they invested at the front line. So they had hit all levels of the organization. Five years later, they were retested by McKinsey on the organizational Health Index and now they were in the top quartile globally, which has again major financial implications with regard to their performance, including financial impact. It’s three Times what it would have been if you’re in the bottom quartile. So that’s the macro story.

When we choose to go deep and work on these things, they can have a really profound impact.

Another more, less macro, a little more micro. We had a group. One of the things that we work on when we’re looking to be more others focused is curiosity. And we really challenge people to be curious, not just intellectual curiosity.

You’ll find a million articles about how intellectual curiosity is connected to performance and leadership. And those are fine, but it’s not enough. We’ve got to also be curious about people, their perspectives, their motives, their ideas. And we were working with a group specifically on curiosity. And one of those managers shared a very, very simple story.

They had an unexpected problem with the production. They were in the construction space and because they were working on being curious, they, they just ask a few extra questions. I mean we can make this rocket science if we want to, but someTimes it just means, you know what, instead of applying the solution we would normally apply, I’m going to ask a few more follow up questions. Through that exercise of we’re working on being more curious, they ended up coming to a different conclusion. That with just a couple of questions saved them a couple hundred thousand dollars because they were willing to ask the question, to go one step further on the examples.

And now we’re going to take it out of the workplace and bring it into the home. This is one of the things about this work that I have been. I should have seen it coming, but I didn’t. When you’re working on who somebody is, it’s going to show up wherever they are, not just at work.

And so there’s, there’s so much, so many stories, I could almost can’t keep track of them. But the one that’s coming to mind currently is a gentleman who was working on himself as a leader, as a father in his own family. And he ran into a situation with his teenage daughter, Norman, normally the parent child examples a teenager shows up somewhere in the story.

So he too was, this is another example actually from curious. He, they were talking about music and she started to go down a road that, you know, there’s generations and we have different musical tastes and.

But he decided that he was going to lean in. He decided, okay, I’m working on being more curious. Why don’t I apply that in this case? And so he did. And then he shared the most amazing story that he discovered that his teenage daughter’s taste in music was actually much, much closer to his own than he would have ever imagined.

And he said, previously, I wouldn’t have even asked. Like I would have just kind of let it go. Well, through this intentional curiosity, he learned this about her and then went on to share with, with the group that we were in about how now the two of them, when they’re traveling or driving somewhere together, they’re now using that as a connection and a bonding thing where they’re sharing music with one another even though they’re from obviously completely different generations.

And he talks about how that had, he talked about how that improved their relationship and then of course improved relationship with parents and childs, that parents and children. That just sets us up to handle the bumps of life more effectively when our relationships are healthier.

And so that one’s obviously different than Ohi or $200,000, that’s a father and a daughter. But those are some examples from macro down to micro. When we become more well developed human beings by becoming more inwardly sound and others focused, there are myriad positive outcomes that make us more effective as leaders.

Meg:
And so as you’re talking about this, it strikes me that part of the conversation with your leaders is about say AI and resumes and silos and giving, giving those people who on paper look like the person you want for the job, but asking more questions about who they are to get more of a dynamic. Do you incorporate that level of depth in the conversation with your leaders about getting out of AI and resumes and more into plugging in the person to get more excellence on the job?

Tim:
Certainly AI is coming up more and more as it is for everybody and everything. And I have a, I have a friend, Bryson Vogel Tans, who wrote a white paper about kind of leadership in the age of AI. And his point in his white paper is that more than ever what’s going to be at a premium is genuine, authentic human leadership. Because so much is going that way of automation.

So if anybody who’s listening, if you decide that you’re going to do the hard work of becoming a well developed who, it’s not going to be a Time and energy that’s not spent well because you’re going to, you’re going to stand out more and more over Time because the world is becoming less and less human, less and less authentic.

And so in some regards we can make an argument for the advantage of digging into this at this particular Time, but you hit on something really important there Meg, which is, you know, in the interviewing process with people, are we having conversations just about what they’ve done or are we listening for who based answers?

I’ll give you a little example because people are regularly asking like, how do we interview for this? At first it’s hard to interview for. So I’m not, I want to sugarcoat it, but if I ask somebody, tell me about, you know, one of your greatest successes in leading a team.

And most people, I would say today, most people are smart enough not to say I did the I, I, I. They’re not going to eye themselves to death because they know that that doesn’t sound good, that they’re just talking about themselves.

But what I like to listen for is how much credit are they given to others? How much are they highlighting others? Like they’re in the interview. So in theory they are going to say they may be smart enough not to use the I language, but how do they incorporate the contributions of others when they tell those stories?

When they talk about their greatest accomplishments, do they talk at all? Do they note the people that contributed to that? The mentors? Do they note the other people that came in?

And so what I’m doing now is. It’s the same question, really. It’s a behavior based interviewing question. Tell me about a Time when so many people are familiar with that. But now I’m listening with a slightly different ear. I’m listening for, is this a person who has some humility?

Yes. Yes, I want you to be confident. And yes, tell me about the part that you did. But are you really telling me that you led a team, that’s the word that I just used, team T E A M, a team did something. But for the last eight minutes, all you have talked about were the things that you did and you didn’t have any credit to share with anybody else.

Okay. You avoided using the word I 75 Times. Good job. But that’s just the veneer. The more we talk with people, the more we get to listen for the heart of who they are.

Yeah. One of my favorite questions when I’m starting to work with somebody is I know that you’ve got your resume, I know that you’ve got your LinkedIn profile and you have lived a life and think of yourself like a pollinator or a bumblebee.

You flitted around and you landed over here and the pollen was really good. And then you took off and you went over here and it wasn’t so good over there. And you don’t want to do that all over again.

So tell me about something in your life that was transformational or formative. Tell me a story. Tell me stories about how you got to where you are today that I would never know because you can’t put it in a LinkedIn profile, you can’t put it in a resume.

I’ve had so many people say, oh, I totally forgot about that story. That was really informative and, and I can hear the rise in their voice when they get excited about it.

So yes, that curiosity about people, people are endlessly fascinating if you just ask the right questions.

Meg:
That’s, that’s endlessly fascinating. That’s a great way to put that. And so getting as a leader, my husband and I are challenged by this all, all the Time.

He’s former Goldman Sachs partner, used to be a trader. You can take the man off the trading floor, but you can’t take the trading out of the man. So he’s got intellects and professors over there.

Then we run another company that does prairie wetland woodland restoration work. Some of these people are biologists, they’re scientists.

Some of them are not. They’re just people out there doing prescribed burns. The leadership qualities for those two entities might seem like they’re different, but the leadership qualities what we’re trying to groom for, we’ve got some people who are graduating and retiring and the leadership aspects that Pete and I are looking for are the who well.

And there’s a universality to that. And I couldn’t agree with you more.

Tim:
And the data backs it up as well. So here’s another little data point for you as we kind of connect the dots together. If we start with a well developed who inwardly sound and others focused, then these are the people that we trust more.

When somebody’s for me and not first for themselves, I’m going to listen to their instruction and their direction, their mentoring, their coaching. I’m going to listen to them differently.

And when I know they’re coming from a grounded place within themselves. This isn’t the insecure, scared, unsettled leader who is frantic like, okay, I can trust what they’re saying more.

So that’s, that’s step one. But what happens with trust next, that’s really fascinating where I want to bring another data point in.

So one of my favorite activities to do with our clients is to read them a couple of emails.

And the first email we read them is from somebody that they really, really do not trust. And the email essentially says, I’ve got a new opportunity for you, it’s going to be really challenging, but I think it’s going to be a real fit with who you are. It’s going to help your team. I think it’s going to further your career.

And then we ask people, after reading that email, tell me how you’re feeling.

It’s a visualization exercise, so you got to really dig in. Scale of 1 to 10, 10 being I’m coming out of my skin excited. One being I’m going to delete the email without even responding.

We asked them to give themselves a rating.

And then I tell them, okay, I’m going to read a different email to you now.

But before I read the second email, we do the same visualization exercise. I want you to imagine that the next email is coming from somebody you really, really do trust. Opposite end of the spectrum.

And then I read the exact same email.

And the reason I can say honestly that it’s a different email is because it is a different email when it comes from a different person.

And so we ask them to scale themselves again, exact same scale. Not a syllable is different in the email.

Okay, where are you now? After hearing the same email the second Time, imagine it coming from somebody you really trust.

We have measured that shift from round one leader I don’t trust and round two leader I do trust is 261%.

Oh my gosh. My engagement goes up by 261% when I’m hearing the exact same message from somebody I don’t trust now moving to somebody who I do trust.

And so the last step towards performance, which is where a lot of leaders, maybe most leaders, maybe all leaders, is where we’re trying to get ultimately.

We’re creating and we’re producing. That last step is what is the connection between engagement and performance?

And so people might be wondering, or is there a, is there a study out there that has looked at engagement and performance?

And the answer is no, there is not a study.

There are over 400 studies that Gallup has brought together in a meta study.

And every organizational and business statistic that you can point at goes up dramatically when people are more engaged.

There’s no rocket science there.

I mean, duh, like somebody’s more engaged in their work, they’re going to produce a better result.

But that line that we’ve just played out here, more well developed who makes me more trustworthy.

When I’m more trustworthy, people are more engaged.

That’s the email exercise.

When people are more engaged globally, across every industry, every ethnicity, every level in an organization, people are more engaged, they produce a better result.

That is why the who, not what principle exists.

So before we talked about, hey, 77% of leadership is a function of who you are.

But if somebody says, well why, why is that?

This that I’ve just described is the why behind it.

Meg:
So that gave me goosebumps. I didn’t see that one coming.

Tim:
The difference, it’s my most fun exercise to do. I love doing the email exercise. We call it, you have been chosen. And it’s really, it’s really fun because people feel it.

I mean that’s, that’s what’s fun about the exercise is we’re gathering data, but they themselves feel the difference.

And the words were literally identical.

Meg:
I can just imagine with one of our companies, aforementioned companies doing that exercise. And the reaction that I had visceral was the second one made me put my shoulders back and puff up a little bit and yep, wow, that’s right.

That’s confidence in me that even maybe I didn’t see myself.

Well, even when we’re just pretending and we know we’re pretending, but we still feel the difference.

Tim:
And so we bring more to the party, we bring more to the engagement and we should, it makes sense to.

By the way, I should say just side note, people might be hearing this and saying so I’m just going to act like I’m others focused and that’ll get what I want.

I’m just going to say over Time, good luck.

I mean if you can act that well for that long, you should be in acting, not in leadership.

People tend to smell out inauthenticity in leadership around these kinds of things.

It’s way more efficient in the long run. Let’s just do the work and become others focused.

Otherwise you’ve got to spend the next 30 years of your life pretending.

And that’s actually really hard work.

So I always encourage people, let’s do the hard work within ourselves.

It’s going to be better in the long run to do that than it is to try to put on a coat and pretend like we’re inwardly sound and others focused.

Meg:
So I want to come and do a seminar with you.

Talk a little bit here as we’re going to wrap up here shortly. Talk a bit about your. How can people access your work?

Tim:
Thank you. Thank you for that.

So easiest place to find us online, we’ll start there, is beworthfollowing.com and you’ll find about what we do.

But really we, we have this spectrum because we’ve learned over Time different organizations and different leaders are ready for different things at different Times.

So on one end of the spectrum is the book. We have a podcast as well called Be Worth Following.

And so that’s at the far side of the least amount of Time and least amount of money and least amount of energy.

But hopefully those are still producing results for people.

We do keynotes so that people can have some of these kinds of experiences like we’re talking about.

We do workshops.

That’s, I mean, I don’t want to pooh pooh the keynote thing.

I love the workshops because I love getting to interact with people.

It is so fun to hear their in the moment things.

Now those things that I just mentioned are a little bit more about understanding the work that we actually love to do the most is to walk with people as they become as they literally are moving and taking steps in who they are.

And the two primary ways that we do that.

We have something called an excursion.

So you’ll hear all this traveling language here.

The excursion, it’s usually about 10 weeks where if somebody has a little more energy than, hey, a workshop would be great.

But what if instead of an afternoon, we had two and a half months together?

And what we do is we actually work on helping people become.

We pick one aspect of Inwardly Sound, Others Focused, and we say, hey, we’re all going to be more curious or more empathic by the end of this 10 weeks.

And we do a series of things during that Time that help move that needle in becoming.

And we call that an excursion.

And then the larger version of that from end to end, all pieces of Inwardly Sound and others focused is 28 months.

And we do that with organizations and we cover the whole gamut.

We go from end to end on Inwardly Sound and Others Focus, where it’s essentially like the excursion, except we just do all the modules back to back to back to back.

And again, that’s 28 months.

So there’s a wide range there from, you know, the free podcast and the inexpensive book to the 28 month journey is what we call that.

That’s the who, not what journey.

And lots of things in between.

So those are the different things that we do with our clients.

Meg:
Those are some great options. Yeah. From do it yourself to doing the really hard work.

I just signed up for a six month thing. Journey. A journey, not an excursion.

Yeah. And this self work even for people who think that you got it.

I’m 62.

And we keep taking bigger steps, bigger bets, bigger challenges.

My husband and I.

And I, I can’t stop and rest on what I think I’m good at.

These challenges are going to push us in new ways.

So I signed up for a journey, a six month journey.

And just such a great thing for everyone to do.

Tim:
Well, good to invest, to take the Time and energy and money to invest in your own development.

I mean that’s because it’s good for your marriage, it’s good for your every.

It’s good for everybody.

Meg:
Yeah. You and I were laughing. You’re right. And I applaud you on that.

Tim:
And look, I’m making those same investments.

The reality is we as an organization and I as an advisor, we can walk people through things.

But the people who are leading us through anything in life, whether it’s a counselor or it could be the dentist or the doctor.

You know, the dentist has to take care of their own teeth as well.

The doctor, you know, we’ve seen some unhealthy doctors.

Like we, we all have to do the work.

We can know the things and it’s important to know the things because we have people in our lives that help us walk down these paths.

But the reality is everybody that works in the kind of work that we do, I’ve got a, I gotta take my own medicine every day.

And sometimes I don’t do that very well and sometimes I do.

But I’m still very blessed to get to be.

I mean, I love this work.

It is, it is a calling for me.

I, you know, I did not, I did not come to this because I saw some type of financial opportunity.

Although it’s been good for my family, I just couldn’t.

I’m a very reluctant entrepreneur.

I never had a lemonade stand as a kid.

I didn’t dream of having a bunch of people work for me.

I just had a message and the only way.

I tried other ways, but I could never freely completely talk about who, not what.

When I was inside other organizations, there was always some kind of governor that got in the way or.

That’s a nice message, but we really don’t want you to talk about that.

And I was like I’ve got to get out there so I can share this message.

And I feel so blessed to get to be in this work with people.

And that’s a whole nother topic that I didn’t even get to is you are a free agent.

One of the reasons why you’re here is that you left safety and security, or perception of such.

Meg:
Well said.

Tim:
In order to do something that is highly risky.

Unknown terrain.

You hadn’t done it before.

And I try to get this message across to the people I’m working with who want to own a franchise, but they’ve never owned a business before.

Get that word imposter.

If it’s anywhere in your being, get it the heck out.

Because we were all born not knowing.

We were all born knowing nothing.

Meg:
Yeah.

Tim:
And we learned and we adapted.

And one thing that I say that always makes people laugh is when you brought that first baby home, it did not know that you’d never done this before.

Meg:
I mean, I’m immediately having a flashback on that one.

Yes.

Tim:
And so get the word out of your brain, because all it does is, is stop the energy and create resistance and a negativity.

You did it.

You took the leap and you landed.

And of course, it took Time for you to get to where you are now.

But all of this work that you’ve put together, leading up to 28 months.

28 fricking months.

I’m pregnant for nine months.

28 months.

I mean, it’s essentially a master’s degree, more or less, is the way I look at it.

And just because if somebody hasn’t.

Just because you haven’t doesn’t mean you can’t.

It just means you haven’t done that exact thing before.

And the way to do it, whatever it might be, whatever developmental experience somebody’s thinking about, or if it’s taking the leap into starting a franchise, the only way is to go ahead and do that.

Of course, people have to figure out if the Timing is right and are they ready for.

Because there are going to be bumps.

We know that.

But the idea that I haven’t done it before, therefore I can’t do it.

I mean, talk about a lie.

That’s just a.

I mean, we will have not done anything in the human race, if that is the story.

I mean, literally nothing.

So, yeah, I think it’s important to have that growth perspective.

You talk about growth mindset, all the stuff from Carol Dweck.

Great thinking about the idea that we can all grow and develop.

And I think it’s important for all of us.

Please.

It’s good for humanity.

Meg:
It’s kind of crazy what’s going on out there in the world at large.

One other, one other transformational thing that’s been in the news in the last 24 hours is Indiana University winning the basketball championship.

Now, easy, easy.

Now.

Mega.

You said basketball.

Oh, I’m sorry.

Football.

This is.

This is very important, Meg.

Tim:
This is very important because I am a Purdue basketball guy and so I could never in a million years bring myself to cheer for that team in Bloomington.

However, what Kurt Signetti did with Indiana football is.

I mean, talk about.

We’re talking about things that have never been done before.

He had the belief, he challenged everybody around him.

By the way, leaders.

He was okay with not being liked by some people that he was calling to account.

When he first got to Bloomington, he had some very interesting conversations with the athletic director regarding their level of commitment and where it needed to be.

And he had enough back to being inwardly sound.

You got to know who you are well enough to be okay with the fact that sometimes not everybody’s going to like you.

And he.

Kurt Signetti certainly.

And then what they have done in the last two years.

And what I mean to say that it’s movie worthy actually is not doing it justice.

Because no movie house would have ever taken this story because, like, what has to be a little bit believable.

And there’s nothing about Indiana winning the national championship in football that would have been believable two years ago.

Even heading into this season after their great season last year.

Skeptics all over the place.

And it is, as much as I hate to admit it, I’m dyed in the wool boilermaker.

I’m a Purdue guy through and through.

I have to admit, the story is unbelievable.

I mean, truly amazing.

And incredibly inspiring for people who think it can’t be done.

Meg:
Yeah, it can be done.

This is just such great inspiration, Tim.

And so I am going to look into the excursion and.

Tim:
Wonderful.

Meg:
Yeah.

So I will see you again.

I will let you know when this is going to launch.

We are.

We just launched season eight last week, so it’s.

We’re live now.

So I’ll let you know when this is gonna upload.

Tim:
Great.

Meg:
And it does upload audio.

I’m sorry, audio only.

We’ll take a clip from our interview today.

Sure.

And use that as a teaser.

And this has been better than better than I had hoped for.

And while still being less formulated in my head, I’m usually more crisp with my questions.

But this is such a great topic.

It’s such.

It’s so chunky.

We could go on for a very long Time.

Tim:
Well, that’s.

And I have at times been accused of going on for a very long Time.

So.

No, I.

Well, hey, thank you for the invitation.

And I.

I mean, I’m passionate about this.

It is, it is my calling to.

To walk with people through this and to help them understand it.

So you’ve given me a forum for, you know, 50 minutes here or so to share with others, and so thank you for that.

It is my pleasure.

And, and my edification.

Meg:
It’s.

You’re.

You’re nourishing my soul and I appreciate.

Tim:
Yeah, well, I had a lot of Time on an airplane there and back and I.

I really wish.

And I don’t know if it’s available to download for audio version.

Meg:
I am negligent.

We are behind.

And it needs to happen yesterday, which is to say it’s not there now, but it’s got it.

We are.

I am negligent.

Tim:
So we got to get it done.

So it’s not there now.

Meg:
That would be great because I have two hours from here to O’Hare to get on a flight, to go wherever.

I don’t think I’m going to be able to get it done.

For your flight to O’Hare this Time.

I would have.

It would have been great if I’d been able to download it, read it on the plane.

But then to do the audio version.

Do you do Kindle?

I do Libby.

Tim:
Okay.

I don’t know Libby as well.

People have told me that they’ve put it onto Kindle and had Kindle read it to them.

Meg:
Sure.

Yes, of course.

So I don’t know if Libby allows that or not.

That’s for my book club.

Okay.

So, of course, that’s where I’m.

I have easy access to the most popular books that way.

But for something like this, the value of the print is how many charts you’ve got in here.

Tim:
Yeah.

The.

The words that are in highlight or bold.

Meg:
Yeah.

Yeah.

This.

You did a great job publishing a really.

Tim:
Thank you very much.

Meg:
A really engaging, easy to read and.

And to embrace and take it all in.

But I do think doing not the do it yourself version, but the.

The guided exercise with you, I think that’s going to be even better for where I need to go next.

Tim:
Chapter eight.

You will see that email exercise in there.

Meg:
I must just be at chapter seven.

Okay.

Tim:
Yeah, you will see that.

And the email is in there.

And you can do that with anybody that you want to.

And Spiker Davis worked for us for a couple of years.

And Spiker, the reason that that book looks the way that it does and is laid out the way that it is is Spiker Davis.

Because I don’t.

I have the ability to say, well, that looks good, but I don’t have the ability to make it happen, happen.

And Spiker was amazing.

And without Spiker.

Spiker’s the reason that book got out of PDF and into print.

He’s the reason that it looks the way that it did.

And I literally.

He sat at the computer and I was on his shoulder and we went.

The interior design of a book is way more complicated than I would have ever imagined.

And we just kept at it.

So all.

All the.

Our.

Spiker did everything regarding our brand as well.

So anything that’s visual regarding our company is all Spiker Davis.

I’m very thankful for him.

Meg:
Well, it’s outstanding work.

And it was Chris Gramowski who introduced us.

Tim:
Yeah.

Meg:
And so I’ll circle back around to him and let him know that we did it.

Tim:
Wonderful.

We got the podcast done.

That’s great.

Did you.

You guys are starting season eight, and it’s.

It doesn’t matter to me when, but do you have a rough approximation of when it will come out?

Meg:
About eight weeks.

Okay.

Great.

It might be less.

It could be more or less.

You could tell me August.

I’d be like, okay, I’ll just.

I was just curious.

Tim:
No.

I think we’ve got six in the hopper right now, so.

Meg:
What a good feeling that is.

Tim:
Yeah.

To have them like.

Meg:
Yes.

Yes.

And thank God for the gal who produces these episodes.

She’s.

She’s.

What you’re describing.

For me, I’m a.

I can execute.

Tim:
Yeah.

Meg:
But I’m not a great visualizer.

And she is.

She’s the one who every week says, you got to try this.

We’re going to do that.

We’re going to.

And so I’m.

I’m fortunate to have a good team around me that lets me do what I’m good at while they do what I’m less skilled at.

Tim:
Yep.

Absolutely.

Yep.

All right.

Thank you so much.

And absolutely.

Absolutely.

I’ll let you know when it’s coming up.

Meg:
All right.

Thanks, Tim.

Appreciate it.

Take care.

Bye.

Tim:
Bye.

Bye.